V2EX = way to explore
V2EX 是一个关于分享和探索的地方
现在注册
已注册用户请  登录
zckevin
V2EX  ›  Apple

关于 Apple M1 的群众意见每日汇总 [码农方向][2020.11.19]

  •  2
     
  •   zckevin · 2020-11-19 09:20:25 +08:00 · 8034 次点击
    这是一个创建于 1458 天前的主题,其中的信息可能已经有所发展或是发生改变。

    通过 CrossOver 运行 Windows 应用

    We’re making it official: @codeweavers CrossOver/Wine runs 32- and 64-bit Windows apps/games on Apple Silicon Macs! And it works today!

    Big thanks to the Rosetta folks at Apple and everyone at CodeWeavers for their hard work on this.

    https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/1329207532154445825

    https://www.codeweavers.com/blog/jwhite/2020/11/18/okay-im-on-the-bandwagon-apple-silicon-is-officially-cool

    Golang 在 Apple M1 下的使用笔记,来自 Filippo Valsorda (Go Team Security Lead)

    M1 first impressions 24h in:

    • this thing is honestly fast Rosetta 2 is kind of amazing
    • many CLI tools only run under R2 for now, and that's fine
    • native makes a difference for heavy apps
    • code signing is a bit annoying but makes sense, and hopefully tooling will catch up
    • https://twitter.com/FiloSottile/status/1329128976929988615

    《 Developing on Apple Silicon 》 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iWUstb66v66tTVxQWNMZ1BehgNzEmykzqDCUp5l8ip8/edit

    For developing in Go on Apple Silicon, there's two main issues to be aware of:

    IDA 在 M1 Mac 上运行良好,来自 Checkra1n 团队成员 @qwertyoruiopz

    M1 is actually pretty good, can’t believe the base air can handle ida like this https://twitter.com/qwertyoruiopz/status/1329152951294844932

    so far so good. there’s some issues overall (eg brew currently doesn’t work well on it), but these will be sorted out and Rosetta 2 is just magic.

    i just copied over my install from mac pro, so this is under rosetta 2. i’ll check later if there’s anything from hexrays in that regard

    • Are 8gb enough even for ida?
    • seems to handle it fine, but i am using it just to look into small machos

    Accelerating TensorFlow Performance on Mac

    https://blog.tensorflow.org/2020/11/accelerating-tensorflow-performance-on-mac.html

    Google releases Apple Silicon-optimized version of Chrome for Mac

    https://9to5google.com/2020/11/18/chrome-mac-apple-silicon/

    If you want to use Chrome on new Macs with Apple M1 chips, head to https://google.com/chrome/ and download the Apple Silicon version we released in M87 today! https://twitter.com/elvin_not_11/status/1328816326542905345

    Does it ARM? A list of reported app support for Apple Silicon

    https://doesitarm.com

    https://github.com/ThatGuySam/doesitarm

    M1 Mac 合盖后依然保持运行,来自 Yachen Liu

    写了非常简单的一小段代码验证了一下早上的观点,确认即使在电池供电且合盖的状态下,M1 设备 CPU 依然会定期的保持活跃,和 iDevice 一样,而且这个活跃不是系统特权。

    第二张图是旧的 MBA,合盖后几分钟内依然活跃,然后就彻底休眠了。 (代码中 counter 忘 ++ 了,忽略…) https://twitter.com/Blankwonder/status/1328952885841960960

    关于 Rosetta 2,来自 Hector Martin

    Also, remember that Apple cheated with their control over the CPU for Rosetta 2. Getting R2 x86 performance on any other ARM is impossible, due to the memory model mismatch. You have to massively slow down all loads and stores.

    So Apple straight up implemented the x86 consistency model on their cores. That's the kind of high-impact detail that makes or breaks emulation performance for a different arch. Did they do this for any other x86-isms? Nobody knows so far.

    https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1328940797174099970

    Also, everyone please stop eating up Apple's marketing bullshit and calling Rosetta 2 an "Ahead-of-Time Translator, Not An Emulator" as if it is some Fundamental Difference that Makes It Fast.

    It's a JIT emulator, with a cache, with opportunistic partial ahead of time warming.

    https://twitter.com/marcan42/status/1328956667548082177

    Rosetta 2 runs everything under the correct memory model

    “Excited” to hear about all the data races now that people will actually execute all their code under ARMs memory model

    woah wait huh i never considered whether rosetta 2 does the necessary synchronization of x86

    https://twitter.com/gsnedders/status/1328710885028884481

    34 条回复    2020-11-20 09:15:39 +08:00
    zckevin
        1
    zckevin  
    OP
       2020-11-19 09:29:10 +08:00
    ## ARM x86 关于 Memory model 的区别,来自 Bruce Dawson (Google Chrome Team)

    mov register-> a
    mov register-> b

    On x86/x64 the store to "b" is guaranteed to not be visible to other processors before the store to "a". On ARM that is not guaranteed.

    Many benign x86/x64 data races will becomes real bugs on ARM, and it appears many programmers don't know this

    The emulator _must_ emulate the x86/x64 memory model. It is as important as properly emulating the CPU status flags and arithmetic instructions. So, yes. If Rosetta didn't emulate the memory model it would not be an x86/x64 emulator.
    warminer
        2
    warminer  
       2020-11-19 09:31:40 +08:00 via iPhone   ❤️ 1
    让人兴奋的硬件,大家都在玩,玩着玩着兼容性就好起来了
    zckevin
        3
    zckevin  
    OP
       2020-11-19 09:50:42 +08:00
    ## Native FP16 on Apple M1, 来自 Steve Canon (Apple Swift team)

    A couple random fun numerics things to play with on M1 macs:

    - native half-precision arithmetic
    - ARMv8.3 complex arithmetic SIMD instructions

    https://twitter.com/stephentyrone/status/1328861121382666240
    studyro
        4
    studyro  
       2020-11-19 09:50:57 +08:00
    感谢整理,最后两条关于 Rosetta 2 的信息之前没注意到
    love
        5
    love  
       2020-11-19 10:17:26 +08:00
    苹果都说需要 2 年生态跟上,有些人现在就买也太那个有信仰了。。。到时更新机都出来了
    otakustay
        6
    otakustay  
       2020-11-19 10:23:31 +08:00   ❤️ 1
    @love 有的不是信仰,是钱
    Gandum
        7
    Gandum  
       2020-11-19 10:34:17 +08:00 via iPhone
    Android Studio 或者其他安卓模拟器有没有消息?
    安卓模拟在 M1 芯片的 MacBook 上效率也应该会提高很多,只不过需要原生支持,不知道 Parallels Desktop 会不会是第一个搞出来的
    zjuster
        8
    zjuster  
       2020-11-19 10:34:49 +08:00
    @otakustay 对于资深互联网从业人员来说,这次的新电脑真不贵.. 四分之一月工资?
    otakustay
        9
    otakustay  
       2020-11-19 10:58:00 +08:00
    @zjuster 夸张了,税后没这么多
    Richardyyz
        10
    Richardyyz  
       2020-11-19 10:58:17 +08:00
    @love 玩票性质来说,我觉得比买一张 3080 值多了。
    Xillusion
        11
    Xillusion  
       2020-11-19 11:00:07 +08:00
    @Gandum 是的 感觉 APP 端开发,以后可能都是 mac 了
    InternetExplorer
        12
    InternetExplorer  
       2020-11-19 11:01:49 +08:00
    @Gandum #7 以后 MacBook 恐怕会是最佳安卓模拟机
    xbiyy
        13
    xbiyy  
       2020-11-19 11:14:52 +08:00
    大家现在都在看兼容性和性能

    我猜测,后续应该会出,5G 模块的版本 mac,类似 ipad

    能够保持一直在线状态
    vvard3n
        14
    vvard3n  
       2020-11-19 11:14:52 +08:00
    vvard3n
        15
    vvard3n  
       2020-11-19 11:15:43 +08:00
    @vvard3n oh 看漏了。。。楼主有发这个网站了
    Lonely
        16
    Lonely  
       2020-11-19 11:17:54 +08:00 via iPhone
    @love 你不买,他不买,都在观望的话,这生态怎么跟上?
    dadupi
        17
    dadupi  
       2020-11-19 11:32:19 +08:00
    目前是不是还不能支持 vmware 或者 pd 虚拟机装 win10 ?有 win 需求(网银 key )的话,需要等等么?
    zckevin
        18
    zckevin  
    OP
       2020-11-19 11:40:52 +08:00
    @dadupi
    @Gandum

    并未持有设备,不清楚。
    yyfearth
        19
    yyfearth  
       2020-11-19 12:10:45 +08:00
    @dadupi 估计没戏 就算是虚拟机 估计不是 x86 虚拟机
    而且就算是 x86 虚拟机 硬件驱动估计是个问题
    feather12315
        20
    feather12315  
       2020-11-19 12:21:08 +08:00 via Android
    @InternetExplorer #12
    @Gandum #7
    CPU monkey 上显示 m1 不支持硬件辅助虚拟化。从原理上讲,性能跟 x86 芯片没啥差别,都是二进制翻译
    charseer
        21
    charseer  
       2020-11-19 15:37:51 +08:00
    emacs 有支持吗
    mh
        22
    mh  
       2020-11-19 16:57:09 +08:00
    @Richardyyz #10 同感,打算把 3070 卖了买 m1 的 air
    Z1ppo
        23
    Z1ppo  
       2020-11-19 17:08:43 +08:00
    我主要做 Data Science,现在的痛点是 Arm 平台缺少开源的 Fortran 90 编译器,而且 LLVM 里的 flang 也没有开发完成。现在做的项目里有 20%是用 Fortran 写的,所以在原生支持 Fortran 前应该只能观望了。
    MAKF
        24
    MAKF  
       2020-11-19 17:28:23 +08:00
    @love 主要是闲钱多也没地方花,充值就是了
    Damenly1
        25
    Damenly1  
       2020-11-19 17:35:41 +08:00
    @charseer 有的, brew install emacs-mac
    tsanie
        26
    tsanie  
       2020-11-19 18:07:19 +08:00
    @Gandum
    @InternetExplorer
    android 模拟器目前有点难搞吧,sdk 那个模拟器是用 intel haxm 加速的。。arm 镜像又卡的无法自理
    不过实体机调试应该没问题。
    Gandum
        27
    Gandum  
       2020-11-19 19:04:58 +08:00
    @tsanie 我是希望有使用硬件虚拟化的 Android 虚拟机,这样远比 x86 上面模拟运行 Android 来的快,既然 WWDC 已经演示了 Linux 虚拟机,那么同根同源的 Android 应该也不是问题,等一波 Parallels Desktop
    agagega
        28
    agagega  
       2020-11-19 20:12:44 +08:00 via iPhone
    @Z1ppo 除了商业的,支持 F90 的好像就 GCC 了吧
    mxalbert1996
        29
    mxalbert1996  
       2020-11-19 20:51:49 +08:00 via Android
    @Gandum @InternetExplorer
    你在 x86 上模拟的也是 x86 版的安卓,所以其实没区别。
    charseer
        30
    charseer  
       2020-11-19 21:34:59 +08:00
    @Damenly1 能跑吗,我看搜到的都说还不行
    imgbed
        31
    imgbed  
       2020-11-19 22:05:48 +08:00
    node 、git 这些能运行吗?
    anguiao
        32
    anguiao  
       2020-11-19 22:09:07 +08:00 via Android
    大家赶紧买,生态就靠你们来完善了。
    我 9 代 i7 + 32G 的 Windows 笔记本还够用两年,等坑填完了我再买。
    coolmenu
        33
    coolmenu  
       2020-11-20 06:42:00 +08:00
    CocoaPods
    arch -x86_64 sudo gem install ffi
    Damenly1
        34
    Damenly1  
       2020-11-20 09:15:39 +08:00
    @charseer 我就只试了没加载任何 mode 的 emacs,其他的 config 我回去试试
    关于   ·   帮助文档   ·   博客   ·   API   ·   FAQ   ·   实用小工具   ·   2014 人在线   最高记录 6679   ·     Select Language
    创意工作者们的社区
    World is powered by solitude
    VERSION: 3.9.8.5 · 28ms · UTC 00:47 · PVG 08:47 · LAX 16:47 · JFK 19:47
    Developed with CodeLauncher
    ♥ Do have faith in what you're doing.